Presidential Candidate Alan Keyes appeared on the “Hardball with Chris
Matthews” television show yesterday, January 25, 2000. Chris Matthews (no
friend of the 2nd Amendment) “grilled” Keyes on his view of the Second
Amendment. The following is a transcript of that conversation.

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Mathews: “Let me ask you about your position on gun control. Everybody
knows we’ve got a second amendment, although it’s often
taken out of the kids’ textbooks when you study the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Where do you stand on the Second
Amendment?”

Keyes: “I strongly support it. I think the Second Amendment is there
because the founders understood the lesson of history; that a
free people must be an armed people, capable of
defending their liberties, not only against foreign enemies but potentially
against an abusive government. That’s why the right to keep
and bear arms is there, why it is guaranteed to the citizens
of this country and why we would be in grave danger if we ever lose our
ability to respect the instruments of our defense and to make
responsible use of them.”

Matthews: “Do you keep a gun at home to protect you from a repressive
government?”

Keyes: “Well, I keep a gun at home. I think I got it in order to
help protect the family, but I think that it’s also, in the larger
sense, part of what we as citizens have a right to keep in the event that
yes, things go wrong in this country. Jefferson, others who were part of
the founders, they made it very clear, it’s right there in the
Declaration, that if a government becomes subversive of liberty, and in
the end a design is evinced to destroy the liberty of the people, they have
the right, he said, they have the duty to alter or abolish it. And
that means, that ultimately, the people of the country are the arbiters,
and they must be prepared to defend themselves if push comes to shove.
That’s why the Second Amendment is there. We can be timid about it
if we like, but that’s the truth of it.”

Matthews: “Well, you know, I don’t think it’s a question of being timid,
it’s a question of what is a credible threat to us. During the
1950′s and 60′s and later, people, some people, went out and dug air
raid shelters, fallout shelters, to hide in if there was a nuclear war.
That was something they thought was credible, and they took
steps to protect themselves. Do you think that there’s a real
credible threat, some day, of an armed force, a United Nations force,
arriving in the small towns and hamlets of America?!”

Keyes: “No, no, excuse me! I didn’t say anything about the United
Nations. I didn’t say anything about any such thing. The credible
threat, sir, at the end of the 20th century, even to raise that
question seems to me absurd. We are at the end of a century when the abuse
of human beings by government power has claimed the lives of millions of
human beings. The suggestion that human nature has somehow changed
since the founding period, and we no longer have to fear the abuse of
government power is so absurd at the end of the 20th century I don’t even
want to address it. This is ridiculous. We have the same nature today
that human beings had when that document was written. We
can put no more trust in those who have government power than our founders
could. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely, was the old phrase.
And that means when you entrust people with power, make sure you keep
the means to be vigilant against their abuse. It’s a lesson of history
we will be loathe to forget, it seems to me.”

Matthews: “In other words, you don’t share those concerns that I hear so
often on this program;
I get letters on this to the effect that people fear, not so much a
Washington repressive force coming to reach out and grab
control of the local communities of this country, but a loss of U.S.
sovereignty, which would permit an international force, you know, the phrase
“black helicopters” is used so often . . . “

Keyes: “Meaning no offense, Chris, this is not the context of the
Second Amendment discussion. I think that we have all kinds of
institutions in this country that make sure we can defend our borders
and our sovereignty. I think that the giveaway of sovereignty is not
happening because we have troops coming across the border. It’s
because we have Bill Clinton and George Bush and Forbes and other people
delivering us over to a free-trade regime, handing our sovereignty off to
the World Trade Organization. We are losing it without firing a shot.
So it seems to me if we want to defend against that, the ballot is the
place we’re gonna have to go.”

Matthews: “In the course of your adulthood and political concerns, have
you ever come
across evidence of the possibility of a repressive government reaching
out into the American
people and creating a situation where a smart person would have to arm
him or her self to protect themselves against such a force? Do you
ever see any evidence of an aggressive Washington totalitarian .
. . ?”

Keyes: “Sure. I would think that anybody who lived in this country
in the last several years, and watched the egregious abuse of power
that took place at Waco, is reminded that sometimes, for whatever
reason best known to themselves, the people in our government lose sight of
who they are supposed to be. That was a thoroughly disgusting, tragic,
and un-American episode! It was Janet Reno, Janet Reno said that
’cause “they were tired” they went in and killed all those people,
including children! I think that that’s time to remember, that yes, power
can be abused.”